What Happened to Us?
{ Dan Perjovschi, What happened to us?, 2007 | drawings on wall + newspaper | MoMA, 57th Street/5th Avenue, NYC | through August 27 | videos | more drawings }
{ Dan Perjovschi, What happened to us?, 2007 | drawings on wall + newspaper | MoMA, 57th Street/5th Avenue, NYC | through August 27 | videos | more drawings }
July 26th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Maybe you didn’t realize this, but whereas the Berlin Wall was designed to keep people in, the Israeli wall is designed to keep murder-bombers and terrorists out and the US border fence are designed to keep criminal invaders and drug smugglers out. Not an insignificant difference.
Cheerio.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Walls are walls.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:28 am
Ehi,
That’s funny, then why is so much of the Palestinian fence built on Palestinian land and not Israeli land? Moreover, why is Israel building it, instead of Palestine?
July 26th, 2007 at 11:39 am
The Israeli wall is designed to steal land from the indigenous arabs, and further imprison them in their own land. Security has nothing to do with it.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Unfortunately, the palestinians can’t build a wall tall enough to keep Israel’s murder-bombers out.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Like the above said, walls are walls. Is one made out of a different sort of brick than the other? They still divide people.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Ehi surely you’ve realised now that there’s no “good” or “bad” side. There are murderous Israelis as well as Palestinians.
Same with the Mexican wall. There are greedy fat racist Americans and there are Mexicans who just want a chance at a better life.
Learn some empathy.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
do you know who is buying these drugs you mention???? and who is making money out of it??? think about it…
July 26th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
supply and demand… of course the people selling them aren’t buying them too… and intermediaries on both sides get rich while the users/producers both get the raw deal (scuse the pun)
July 26th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
Yeah walls are walls… Real clever. I love that in order to cling to your turd of a bumpersticker slogan, you have to totally overlook the purpose of a wall. Walls trapping people to enslave them is quite different from walls used to repel a people dedicated to your destruction.
Why don’t you just tear down the walls of your house? Why separate yourself? Or maybe you’re being literal and a wooden wall is somehow more humane than a brick one in your world. I have no idea the implications or extent of your irrational, trite, kneejerk response, and I would bet you don’t either.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
LOL INTERNET FIGHT
July 26th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
They’re coming to get you! Terrorists! Build a wall! Around them! They’re ALL there! They’re all terrorists!!!
July 26th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Walls are walls, they do seperate, in some cases cause chaos, in others peace.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Walls historically marked the beginning of the end of empires. When “leaders” start acting paranoid, they finish expansion (conquering, invading, massacring or whatever you like to call it) and they build walls to “protect” themselves. This stands for the Berlin wall (Germany, not the clearest example, but still valid), for the Great wall (China), for the Rome walls (Italy) and others. The closest case I can see is the Roman Empire, which was MUCH like the actual Jewish-American Empire: Omnipresent expanded power, wild ignorant citizens, perversion on the highest classes and absurd lies that people take as true. I just hope it is not too late…
July 26th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
an 800 mile wall along the 1,951 mile US-Mexico border isn’t going to keep “criminal invaders” out! Come on! And for all you conspiracy theorists out there, guess who’s contracted to build it? You guessed it, Haliburton! Don’t take my word for it, look it up!
July 26th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Hi. We all agree that not every wall has an exactly identical effect. Now everyone please stop shitting all over the comments section. KTHXBYE
July 26th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
>> Why don’t you just tear down the walls of your house? Why separate yourself?
Uh, what? The walls of my house don’t keep criminals out or trap my family inside. The primary function of the walls is to protect me and my things from the natural elements: you know, rain, snow, mold, roaches.
Maybe the walls stop the casual, opportunist thief, but anyone dedicated to my destruction will not be stopped. And I think that’s my main objection to a wall in Mexico: it’s not going to stop the really bad people. Terrorist and drug smugglers will come in through Canada or just find an unprotected area of our huge coastline.
Saying “a wall is a wall” is not really irrational; in fact, it’s the exact opposite: 100% logical. A wall is a wall and has only one purpose: to separate. Walls, like wars, can be used for good or bad means, but there is an undeniable fact that in the ideal world, there would be no giant walls between countries.
Before spend vast amounts of money and energy on something that will only make us minimally safer/better/whatever, maybe we should try to address the reasons that people are crossing those walls.
July 26th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
lovely… walls, oil, war, money, capitalism… hum… when building a wall, how do you know which side is good and which one is bad?
July 26th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
The guys who buy and smuggle the drugs live in Beverly Hills, Manhattan and other chic places. Are you guys building a wall in Beverly Hills too? What happens in Mexico and in other third world countries are the result of the american capitalism. One have to be poor, so the americans can enjoy their life. Everything that is occuring in the US is the result of exploitation of the poor. Money in the hand of few represent more violence, more misery, more guns, more deaths more walls. You will have to build walls inside walls, to the day every person will have its own wall and live in isolation. This day is not far from now.
In countries like Brazil, you will find companies that pay an annual salary of 1 million dollars or more to their executives. The same companies pay their janitors 800 USD a year or less. The executives are in constant panic of being kidnaped and robbed. They buy bullet proof shielded cars and vests (walls), their families are in constant panic and they live with security (walls) inside closed (walls) condominiums.
My conclusion: there’s no point of being rich when you cannot enjoy your life.
So, there’s two choices: continue building walls or do something to change that.
July 26th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
@mike: re: capitalism:
how is america keeping other countries down economically? we give out billions in foreign aid and invest in their markets. you skip the easy and obvious answer, that they are poor because of their government. capitalism does not steal money, it MAKES it. the only reason americans enjoy the life they live is because they have earned it through hard-work. i’ll admit in the last 40 years the foreign policy has been horrible and we should change it but that is not why we’re enjoying a high standard of living, it’s because we work our fucking asses off.
July 26th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Haywire
How could you compare the Israelis/Palestinians wall with the American/Mexican wall?
And if there’s no good or bad side, why does it seem like you’re accusing America of being bad guys for not wanting Mexicans to sneak into their country to “better their life”?
Nobody said they couldn’t come to America…it just needs to be done a certain way, and that way isn’t by illegally sneaking in.
Tell me one country where you could just walk into and set up camp without having to legally announce yourself in some way. Why should America allow it ?
The wall (which will be mostly virtual if that means anything to you) isn’t a problem, it’s a solution.
July 26th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Innovation coupled with Labor “makes” money. Capitalism is just a belief system that we have been told is the best. Just ask all of the former Enron employees how beneficial the wonderful capitalistic system has been to them.
July 26th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Fighting on the internet is like playing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, your still RETARTED!
July 26th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
the craziest thing, though, is that you take a simple word like “walls,” and you note, that at its core, are the four letters: a-l-l-s, i.e., “alls.” And then note: a-l-l-s is also in the word, “balls.” then you recognize the connection between walls and balls…like, i don’t know, maybe it takes balls to build walls. and then you think about glengarry glenross, and that alec baldwin monologue, “it takes brass balls to sell real estate” and you think, “maybe the origin of the quote was ‘it takes brass balls to build walls.’”
If you think about it, it makes real sense. So don’t get wrapped in the walls are walls mantra, b/c the more appropriate and accurate “truism” is “walls take balls.” you might also expand on the concept and think, “the bigger the walls, the brasser the balls.” Or even, “the more rigid the walls; the bouncier the balls.”
People heap a lot of crap on bumper sticker slogans, as if the 8th deadly sin was triteness. But think about it: all great causes began with a single, unifying aphorism.
Four Square Competitors of the World Unite:
“BREAK DOWN THE WALLS WITH BIG HAIRY BALLS!”
July 26th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Yes, Ehi, that is how and why the walls are designed, and yes there is a difference. However, the pictures aren’t detailed dissertations on life issues, they are one artist’s view of the degradation of society in a simplistic and witty manner.
The comment above this by Brian is a perfect example of said degradation.
July 26th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
these are all good, except for the oversimplified wall one everyone’s fighting about. was that the only one done by a small child?
July 26th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
It seems YOU’RE (not ‘your’) retarded (with 2 D’s and 1 T), Brian.
I’m totally picking a fight with you! DeeDeeDee!
July 26th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Aardvark is Gary Busey…I’m on to you
July 26th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Amazingly it seems everyone likes to bash Isreal. Isrealis are guilty of a lot of things, but they don’t strap on dynamite tank tops and target busses with kids in them. They bulldoze their houses. I’d rather have a jacked up house, how about you? As far as Mexicans or any other ethnicity, please come on over, legally. If you want a better life, great, work for it, I don’t want to have to pay for it. That goes for the lazy asses that were born here as well. And I do pay for it, when you go to school for free, or you don’t pay your health care because the taxpayers do, etc. Bullets are much cheaper than walls, so I agree no walls. You can keep your empathy and pay for yourself, it will go farther.
July 26th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Unfortunately, the Israelis can’t build a wall tall enough to stop Palestinians’ rocket attacks.
July 26th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Hi guys!
Remember me?
Im the planet you ALL live on!
I see that you’ve all been real busy concentrating
on religious beliefs, immigration, and Paris Hilton.
Too bad.
Guess ya didn’t see the Big picture!
(because you were too busy bitching at each other!)
Oh, by the way……….
Some Baaad weather’s on the way, so like, later.
P.S. Hope you all work out that whole
MY god can beat up YOUR god thing…he he…
ttfn
July 26th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
my god. with all you lot commenting they way you have, its no wonder people build walls.
July 26th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
Are we just discussing walls or can we please change the subjects to the $150 ripped jeans, it looks like the one I was wearing in my previous video blog where I talk about my cat having kittehs, lolololol
July 26th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
We are all fu($*. Build walls, don’t build walls. Either way, all humans want to do is kill those who are not like them. If that’s the case, who wants to be human? We’re better off leaving the planet to the cockroaches!
July 26th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
“Isrealis are guilty of a lot of things, but they don’t strap on dynamite tank tops and target busses with kids in them.”
No matter how much you would love to, you don’t know that.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
Liberalism truly is….a mental disorder.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:39 am
So this is art now? That’s cool. Reduction of complex issues into mind numbing and thoughtless scribbles that seem to make sense, until one puts in a few moments of study and reflection. What Happened to Us? What happened to him? Assumptions are not facts. Distortions and half truths are not necessarily insightful… even if they are poorly drawn and ‘kewl’. However, if this guy is maybe going on 14, then - yeah - it’s like really wow you know like down with it….
July 27th, 2007 at 2:39 am
What if…
July 27th, 2007 at 6:23 am
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed.(AE)
July 27th, 2007 at 8:27 am
something there is…that doesn’t love a wall.
walls make good neighbors.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:01 am
walls don’t divide people. walls separate people.
religions divide people. politics divide people.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:09 am
But again, part of the problem with “tearing down the walls” is that you end up with a “throwing the baby out with the bath water” situation. You “cut off your nose to spite your face” or “chop off your toes b/c the little piggies went to the more expensive supermarket.” In other words, if you toss out all the walls, you discard a plethora of innocuous walls. For instance, after you’ve completed your destruction of the walls quest, what will be left of “the Wall” by Pink Floyd? Does that go by the wayside also? what about the WALLflowers? what about WALLace and Gromit? Maybe Gromit misses the cut but surely WALLace is toast. You know, the tragedy of all this is that the real victim is the innocence of our youth. As a kid, I used to play a game called “Ball against the Wall.” It was a simply, yet beautiful game, where two players would take turns bouncing a ball against the wall. Simple, beautiful…innocent. What about that? What happens to our nation’s innocence when you tear down the walls and leave the children to play with nothing but their balls with no walls? Please, just think about it.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:12 am
That brings meditation to us.
What is happening to us depends on what we are doing to ourselves!
Right?
July 27th, 2007 at 10:35 am
I agree about the pants — it’s patently ridiculous that if you walk into any clothing store in any mall in America that isn’t specifically trying to sell cheap clothes, the racks are going to be full of jeans that are faded, scuffed, ripped, and generally in shitty condition. Why are we expected to pay lots of money for pants that look as bad as the old ones they’re replacing?
I do all my jeans shopping at Goodwill these days — the merchandise is much nicer.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Jake, Americans may work hard, but many workers in the developing world work 16 hours a day, seven days a week, yet earn only pennies an hour.
There are lots of reasons for this, but one big reason is the billions of dollars in subsidies that the American and European governments pay their farmers, which depresses global crop prices below cost. That cancels out a lot of the small amount we give in foreign aid.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Just so ya know, the Israeli “wall” is mostly a just a barbed-wire fence.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Just so ya know, the Israeli “wall” is mostly just a barbed-wire fence. For some reason, the media prefers only to show the few miles where it is actually a wall (because it is a high-risk area for suicide bombers to sneak in).
And how many Israeli terrorists were there? Any recent ones?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
“Walls are built to separate”
Is separation a bad thing? Is diversity such a good thing? Education and teaching can lead to people being unified and able to coexist well, but mixing people who are determined to kill others like Israel/Palestine together just for the sake of diversity is stupid. Anyone who says otherwise is stupid. Why don’t we mix child molester prisoners and orphans while we are at it. The Jail walls keep the people that need to be separated, separated and there is nothing immoral about that.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
There is nothing wrong with having an internet fight. Its a good way to blow off some steam without punching anyone in the face with the possibility of a lawsuit and things of that nature. On another note, who cares if your grammer is proper? Its doesn’t make you any more smarterer because you catch an individuals spelling errors? What are you, the thread spell checker? Sweet, I’ll copy and paste my 8000 word essay on phosphoric acids, and you can go to town.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Nope…
Just don’t call someone a tard and spell it wrong…
that’s stoopid! : )
Send the essay this way if you’d like Or you can just use the spell check that’s built into your software
Weeeeeeeeeee
July 27th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
walls are built to divide. end of story. not just the physical walls, psychological walls you build in your head.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
well, that settles it. America is doomed.
You morons can’t even read someone’s nice little comic strip without yelling at each other and arguing.
gosh, freaking artards.
im moving to scotland.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
oh, and why are u stuck up on the wall cartoon?
there are other pictures too you know
July 27th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Feng Shui divides people !!
July 27th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
I never meant to bash Israel. I respect them: They are very smart people, they are very good doing high tech, they have some of the best artists I know and they survived +5000 years a constant war against Islam.
If you ask me about that, I think both of them (jewish and Islam) never learned after SO MANY years of war and that is terribly sad… I cannot understand it and possibly never will (by the way, all religions are terrible to me). But I am an outsider, never lived there.
When I cited the American Empire, I did mention the Jewish because I think that US heavily backs and respond to that community; and that’s why I wrote Jewish-American Empire, not to bash anyone. I hope I did not harm any sensible feeling…
@AM: Palestinians just got (and launched) a few rockets recently, Israel attack with very sophisticated technology (including high tech rockets) from many years ago… Middle east is a mess, from too long.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Anyone who locks their door at night has absolutely no business declaring that walls are inherently immoral or “bad.” This is especially true for people who believe that governments must operate according to the same sorts of moral standards applicable to humans (no one complains when someone locks the door to their house and says that people living across the street can’t sleep there…so why not a country as well?
July 27th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
I get the sense that everyone is SHOCKED that two peoples living on adjacent pieces of land could actually be in conflict, as if no two groups on the history of the planet have every taken up arms against one another. The fact of the matter is that what really tends to be shocking is that more people aren’t at war. It’s always amazing to think that Canada and the US have shared a border without actually having gone to war. The commonality of all ages is that people have always been at war. Nothing about the Israeli/Palestinian situation is particularly shocking. The fact that so many pundits are aghast at the situation and bewildered by the fact that two groups hate each other speaks more about the experiences of the people who are shocked. The implication being that they have been relatively sheltered from the horrors that plague the strong percentage of the world and that have plagued for the world for millenia.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Patrick, you’re so voluble!
Yes Apollyon, but the palestinian rockets are rarely targeting soldiers or ‘terrorists’.
By the way, the CAPITAL-ISM is my favorite.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
>Same with the Mexican wall. There are greedy fat racist Americans and there are >Mexicans who just want a chance at a better life.
>
>Learn some empathy.
Yah, lotta love there. We all have to be greedy, fat, and racist. Poor them. Here’s a spear for you to sit on, racist.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Walls, does YOUR house have them?
If so, you are a hypocrite.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Labeling things as “liberal” or “conservative” is also mental disorder. Face reality, the neo-cons are some of the most mentally disturbed people on earth.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
soylent green is people!!!!!!!!!!!
July 28th, 2007 at 12:05 am
I’m sorry, this is supposed to be art or some kind of statement?
Perhaps a teenager run amok with a sharpie… even less humorous is seeing all the childish squabbling blossoming from this display of magic marker proficiency.
So, I guess anyone with a magic marker rehashing typical comic book political satire from the Washington Post should garner so much internet fame…
15 seconds… tick… tick… tick… it’s almost over.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:29 am
Maybe the native americans should aslo have built a wall to prevent the pilgrims (founding fathers) from stealing their land?
How ironic…
A wall can be made of many things.
Can be made of bricks/stone/metal, can be an economic wall, can be a cultural wall, etc…
July 28th, 2007 at 6:14 am
I wish one day a nation will conquer all world and all other loser nations, Israel and Palestine, USA and Mexico etc etc. will hail together that nation. Then they may live together in one united country in peace or feel the club of cops at their neck.
: And I hope that nation will be Turkey, since I m Turkish >=D
July 28th, 2007 at 6:15 am
btw, of course all walls illegally dividing the united country will be destroyed.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:28 am
Theo, my experiences and observations are quite different from yours. I love to travel and travel a lot. I do not find that the poorest people are working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. I find that the poorest people are actually working very little. They mainly sit around and do virtually nothing. Why? They just don’t know what else to do. They lack the education and knowledge to vastly improve their economic situation.
Other people travel and see poverty. I travel and see opportunity. I see “poor” areas that have richest beyond the wildest dreams of many. But the residents are not educated enough to know how to harvest those riches.
Education is one of the best investments we can make in “poor” areas. Consider countries like China, India and Japan. Years ago people considered them to be the poorest in the world, are now economic powerhouses. In each case, their populations are becoming better and better educated.
Now consider those countries that are “poor” and the educaton that is being provided. You can actually see the difference side by side in countries like Bolivia. You have your fairly well educated city dwellers and your virtually uneducated rural inhabitants. It creates an economic divide that you can actually see before you.
I suspect that a US/Mexico wall is nothing compared to the educational/economic divide that separates illegal Mexican’s from the average American, German, or Italian.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Leopold just said real true stuff, I agree.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
The poorest of the poor do next-to-nothing because doing much of anything takes energy they don’t have; i.e. they are STARVING. They are cetainly not pining away the days wishing they cpuld afford extensions classes at Yale.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Fuck, Internet comment sections just need to be abolished…
July 28th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Build a wall, don’t build a wall. Keep in, Keep out. Hate Israel, love Palestine. Love Israel, hate Palestine. Your God, my God. Liberal, Conservative. Agree, disagree. Truth, lies. Fear, hope. Live, die.
Blah… blah… blah… yada… yada… yada…
9.9% of posters reel out their opinions and stop. Obviously, the posters on this site cannot agree; in fact, its mostly conjecture and arguments. So, why become upset because some lame brain, bumper-sticker inspired, uneducated opinionated mental pygmy cannot see your view (which is of course, obviously superior).
So, you blame America, poverty, corporations for all of societal ills? Here is a revelation for some of you… “you” are society.
Tell us what you are doing about changing the World, not how the World should be run. Your opinion means little, your actions we will believe.
As for all the “discussion” on this site, here is all I know for certain in life:
1. Death.
2. Judgment.
3. If you come into my house uninvited, no matter how inviting it looks inside, I will kill you. And I will sleep just fine.
4. I have to go to work tomorrow to pay my bills. And,
5. If there are misspellings or poor grammar in this posting, I could not care less. So let it piss you off.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
LibTards(tm) are so cute when they try to act smart.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
This discussion has spiraled out of control. Someone need to take it outside and shoot it, or something.
Thanks for the great post!
July 28th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Well I think that we shouldn’t build walls. Instead we should make a giant pit full of snakes. And lava. And crocodiles. And sharks. And have giant automatic gun turrets targeted to kill people. And electric eels. And rednecks with shotguns patrolling with orders to shoot on sight. That way, only the smartest strongest mexicans can get over.
Israel should do the same thing, except make it kosher. And btw it’s all Israel’s land. West bank and Gaza were both conquered. If you say that conquest isn’t legit, then go kick the turks out of turkey.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:15 am
WHAT HAPPENED TO US?
Internet forums where people get to make symbols with their hands
Where they don’t realize that the more they say, the more they prove themselves wrong.
Where they take the simplest ideas and turn them into soap boxes of absurdness
And everyone’s “right to an opinion” ultimately leads to trivial nonsense
July 29th, 2007 at 2:30 am
it is nice to see art inciting discussion. perhaps this internet thing is good for something. anyway, i recommend seeing the work in person. it’s impressive.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:42 am
i noticed a comment by someone calling themself “x” calling into question whether or not this is art. why does it matter what you call it? it is what it is and it is asking some powerful questions that need to be asked. if the art galleries are the only venue for progressive thought and blatant challenging of the status quo, then perhaps art’s purpose in a contemporary society is to do exactly those things. anyway, this sort of debate certainly isn’t taking place in any congress or house. it needs to take place somewhere and if that’s what the internet is providing, then i say GOOD! let it have it’s fifteen minutes…let it have all eternity.
everyone has an opinion about everything, and everyone in this country has the right to express that opinion. just as you may think they should not be allowed to call this art, someone else thinks you should not be allowed to talk. that person is not me, however.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:59 am
“I can see the arguments on both sides of the immigration issue. And I’m sure I’d have a different view if I lived in some gang-infested part of Southern California. But the dirty little secret that most Californians know is that Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise, are bringing up the national average on the “good people” meter. If that were not so obviously the case, the borders would have been shut a long time ago.”
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/07/immigration.html
July 29th, 2007 at 4:05 am
Art is art. Expression. Right, wrong, or in between.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:15 am
Art can be used to comment on life, religion, politics.
Bravo on succeeding.
Now, back to reality. Walls serve a purpose, or they wouldn’t be built. Welcome back to reality. Don’t like it? Go vote. Can’t vote? Call us up, we like to intervene in places people can’t vote. That failed? Well you can always do it yourself. No? Then STFU - how many foreign countries have you tried to help? You crying about lack of economic power and inequality? Welcome to the club. Now do what we did and get your ass busy and do something about it. We can’t do EVERYTHING. Gawd. GEEZ.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:57 am
how come the 911 saga suddenly became us mexico problem?? its a diversion , to not focus on the real problems
July 29th, 2007 at 10:02 am
“Maybe you didn’t realize this, but whereas the Berlin Wall was designed to keep people in, the Israeli wall is designed to keep murder-bombers and terrorists out and the US border fence are designed to keep criminal invaders and drug smugglers out.”
Yeah, that’s what the communists said.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:09 am
The Israeli wall is illegal and must come down. This statement is simply fallacious. Israel built its security fence only after endless Palestinian terrorist attacks
from the West Bank claimed the lives of hundreds of Israelis and injured thousands more. Israel, like any other sovereign state has the right, obligation, and duty to defend its citizens. But let’s talk about walls: What about the militaristic security wall that Saudi Arabia is building on its border with Yemen and Iraq? Where is the criticism for the Kashmiri fence between India and Pakistan? Or the electronically-charged fence between Botswana and Zimbabwe? Where is the discussion about the DMZ between North and South Korea? The fence is not the problem. The fence can come down when the violence ends, but the lives of murdered Israelis can never be rebuilt.”
-(not my own words, but I wish they were.)
July 29th, 2007 at 10:21 am
By the way, I really like the PIN number cartoon.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:50 am
Did anyone see the fourth die hard movie? Can anyone believe they actually made a fourth episode of that? That’s totally nuts. I will admit that I bought into the original movie, which involved the infiltration of the Nakatomi plaza by German terrorists. However, I was very young at the time and didn’t have the mental “walls” to put up to prevent it from forming a huge impression on my mind. Didn’t we all as kids want to save our own little Nakatomi plaza?
Part of me thinks that everyone in the World has their own Nakatomi plaza to defend, whether it’s the country of Israel, Palestine, America, or Asia. Don’t we all kind of enjoy the idea of staring the villain in the eye and blasting him through the heart with a yippy kay-yaaaa, m-f’er and a 9mm slug? At the core, that’s what people want and need? so, why all the fuss about walls? We need more walls, b/c at the end of the day, it gives the guys on opposite sides of the walls something fun to think about. I am sure tons of little Israelis are laying awake at night dreaming about the time when they get to play John McClainovitz and tape a gun to their back and scream out profanities and blow away the bad guy! And I am sure Palestinians nurture the same fantasy.
Don’t discredit walls unless you are also willing to give up on Die Hard. For me, I saw Die Hard 4 b/c it represents more than just an evening of popcorn and solid entertainment. It represents all humanity and the spirit of existence. And to that I say, Yippy Kay-Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
It is well beyond time for (US) Americans to see the slanted worldview of their (our) country. Blind support of Israel -
Lets see - Palestinians use bombs. That is how you get territory you want there - Terrorism in Palestine BEGAN in 1948 with the bombing of the King David Hotel, killing Brits, Palestinians and foreigners (”innocents”). Two of the leaders of that attack became Prime Minister of Israel.
Let’s see - North Korea is bad for wanting nuclear power, but they signed on to an anti-proliferation treaty. Israel has nuclear weapons but refuses to sign on to anti-proliferation. Iran wants nuclear power and allows International Atomic Agency inspectors in - Israel will not allow them. North Korea is not a Christian nation.
Let’s see - Iraq does not accede to a UN resolution and Bush the First attacks. Israel has ignored UN Resolution 242 (I think) to return stolen land to Palestinians and the US ignores it.
Let’s see - People without a political affiliation attack the World Trade Towers. Bush The Idiot attacks 2 Arab countries, Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel purposefully sank a US ship in the 1960’s and the US ignored it. Afghanistan and Iraq are predominantly Muslim.
Let’s See - Cuba does not represent a threat to the US or the world and Bush The Idiot will not have trade relations with them because their people are not free. Israel kills and economically torments Palestinians and it is ignored. Cuba is not a Christian nation. Palestinians are predominantly Muslim.
Let’s see - Some right-wing Christian extremists bomb the Murrah building in Oklahoma City; two people are arrested and things go back to normal. A group of Muslims attack the World Trade Center and Muslims are scrutinized more carefully than Christians for “security”.
So, how would YOU perceive it if you were a Palestinian or a Muslim in the Middle East? The US helps take land away from people to form a nation and then supports them in atrocities and invades Iraq and commits their own atrocities. And every day another US policy or action against Muslims in the name of Bush The Idiots ‘pretend friend’, God.
Imagine what you would do if a powerful Muslim nation that has shown their animus towards the US successfully invaded the US and installed a government they wanted? As they say, “Who would Jesus bomb?” Would you fight the occupiers? What is so wrong with the Iraqi resistance?
The thing that Bush The Idiot and the Christian invaders forget is that the people in Iraq are people, equal to them in every way - not ‘poor ignorant savages who need our civilizing influence in the attitude of the British Empire. Once the US has all of their problems fixed, we can start to teach others how to live. But that would mean getting rid of our military-industrial-political complex……..
July 29th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
There would have been a Palestine too when Israel was created if the Arab nations didn’t start attacking Israel the second it was formed, and I do mean the second it was formed. And I’m not saying that Israel is perfect, either; nobody is. But to say that Israel does not have a right to exist just because it is a Jewish state, something they teach their children from an early age, is just so heinous an idea that I don’t want to think about it.
Americans- think about living in fear of a 9/11 everyday. Israel has frequently been attacked by terrorists (NOT to be confused with Arabs in general), so they naturally want and need to defend themselves with security precautions. Why are they being hated for that?
July 29th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Hello everyone,
This discussion on the Israeli West Bank wall interests me. I want to reply to some of the comments here.
First of all, I don’t pretend to be an authority on the issue of the Israeli West Bank Wall at all, but I did do some research.
The incomplete wall is interpreted in various ways. To some, it is an effective and practical deterrent to Palestinian attacks. It also is a more politically correct way, in the mind of some Israeli leaders, to deal with Palestinian militants. Instead of punishing the collective Palestinian population for an isolated terrorist attack, instead of committing acts of extra-judicial assassination of individual targets, instead of keeping IDF troops on constant mobilization, just build a wall.
Not only is it practical and politically correct, it is working as a security measure so far. Statistically, the wall has directly reduced the number of terrorist attacks in Israel. Why even Hamas officials concede the wall makes it very difficult to stage attacks in Israel.
So the wall seems OK if you think of it as practical and better than bombing civilians or better than invading Palestine with Special Forces. But besides the somewhat obvious practicality and political correctness, how did Israel and Palestine get to this point? How does the wall affect ordinary Palestinians? And what do people around the world think of the wall?
Most would agree that Israel’s decision to build this wall is rooted in the collapse of the Oslo Accord. The Oslo Accord, as you know, was a peace treaty signed by both Israel and Palestine. Israel agreed to move out of the Gaza Strip in phases if Palestine agreed to cease militant attacks. But this agreement obviously did not work out.
For one, Israel continued to expand and build on disputed lands. This was not explicitly forbidden by the agreement, but many Palestinians considered the expansion neglectful of the spirit of the peace accord. So once again, the Palestinians began to fight Israel over expansion into disputed lands, but Israel was waiting for Palestine to curb their attacks before they would return Palestinian lands.
This impasse over the Oslo accord led to the 2nd intifada or uprising; and it was catalyzed by the failed Camp David Summit.
As the violence before the 2nd intifada grew deadlier for both sides, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu dedicated himself to ensuring the security of Israelis in light of the ongoing violence. So he decided to put conditions on each step of the Oslo accord to ensure Palestine met all the requirements of the accord. Meanwhile Israel continued to expand into disputed lands, creating more tension.
The moment of truth came when the US, Israel, and Palestine met at the Camp David Summit to negotiate a final settlement between Israel and Palestine. Many don’t realize how many billions of dollars the US has given to Palestine in hopes of brokering a deal between Palestine and Israel.
The summit was meant to finalize the boundaries of both states, return land to the Palestinians, and compensate Palestinian refugees among other things. Unfortunately the summit was a failure and shortly thereafter Palestine explicitly broke the Oslo Accord with violence.
Basically the Israelis said Palestine gets their land back if they stop attacks, Palestine says they want the land back first and then they will stop. No deal. Time to fight.
There are many views on who was in the right at Camp David. Some say Arafat, never planned to agree with Israel on anything. Other say he even planned to attack before the summit. Others say that according to International Law, Palestine had every right to demand the full withdrawal of Israel before Palestine dismantled its militant infrastructure.
Whatever the case, the uprising began after the breakdown of negotiations. So the tit for tat, eye for an eye, strategy started all over again. Now an official uprising with Palestinian Governmental support was underway for the 2nd time; some claim Arafat intentionally ignored Palestinian rioting over the Summit outcome to incite the eventual slaying of several protestors by the IDF. This tactic was meant to turn International opinion against Israel and give Palestine a diplomatic advantage since, internationally, Arafat was viewed as the one who ruined any chance for a final resolve.
At any rate, these are some of the reasons Israel decided a wall was necessary
So what do people think about this wall? Some world leaders think the wall should be a temporary security wall rather than a permanent political wall, yet they also see the necessity for Israel to protect itself.
Most Palestinians oppose the wall citing separation from their own farmlands, their own places of study, and eventually from Jerusalem as prime reasons. Furthermore, Palestinians think the wall confining and humiliating.
Other say the wall prevents Palestinian Authority services from reaching Palestinians in East Jerusalem. What was once a 10 minute walk is now a 3 hour drive to a military checkpoint.
Furthermore, many on the left contend the wall will only breed more discontent, causing greater security issues for Israel. Not only that, they believe the wall is a form of apartheid; with American support, the wall is a reward for illegal occupation at the expense of the Palestinian people and in defiance of the Palestinian government and the Arab world.
Internationally speaking, the UN believes parts of the wall should be torn down where it deviates from the green line or the 1949 armistice agreement lines. This was vetoed by the US however.
The International Court of Justice, however, deemed the entire wall illegal. Their judgment affected a later UN vote of 150 countries agreeing the wall is illegal.
The International Red Cross claims the wall creates many humanitarian problems and that Israel has overstepped its legal boundaries.
The World Council of Churches also claims the wall is illegal, inhumane, and that it enables an illegal land grab by the Israelis.
Hillary Clinton believes should be allowed to build the wall in the west bank until the Palestinians rein in its terrorists.
Others believe the wall is a defacto delineation of the future Israeli state’s borders. Or that Israel is using security as an excuse to grab up Palestinian land, prejudicing border negotiations towards the Israelis. Others further state that the wall is a political message to Palestinians saying that every time they fail to compromise, their land shrinks; if they don’t dismantle their terrorist infrastructure and give up dreams of Israeli destruction, Israel will dictate the shape of the Palestinian and Israeli state to come.
In short, the wall may be practical. It may be better than unpopular IDF incursions into civilian areas; to some world leaders it is necessary in light of Palestinian inflexibility and Palestinian threats. But it is also viewed by many Palestinians as a new tactic for dictating the terms of land negotiations, a way of undermining the Palestinian economy, and a way of oppressing the Palestinian people–all in disregard of the Palestinian government’s wishes. Of course, now the Palestinian Government is undergoing upheavals anyway.
Some believe the wall may lead to greater insecurity for Israel in the long-run but most recently it has dramatically cut down the number of attacks. Internationally, most countries in the UN are opposed to the wall for humanitarian and legal reasons as are a number of notable organization.
To this day, the US is probably the most supportive of Israel’s decisions over any other country. Yet even President Bush thinks the wall should be temporary rather than permanent, for security reasons, rather than political reasons.
I’ll leave it up to you to come to your own conclusions.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
we need to psychadelisize them with our love messages
July 29th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Why does everyone say that if we stop them at mexico they will just come through Canada. It is STILL YOUR DAMN BORDER. Canadians do not stop people from going into your country. They are not here to “attack” Canada. SO grow up and stop blaming other for your failures.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
I have a fence around my house
July 29th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Good fences make good neighbors.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:06 am
yeah i like the artists work too! I love how despite all the stereotypes about people on the internet being ignorant and argumentative we can manage to discuss this artists new style and new medium in which to work!
-tim
July 30th, 2007 at 7:40 am
Shut up, hippies. Ehi had it from the beginning. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to protect oneself. A country has a right to keep out foreign invaders.
July 30th, 2007 at 9:04 am
“Poor Palestinians” surely don’t ike the wall - it makes terroristic attacks against Israel harder. Jewish state of Israel is extremely soft and lanient to creatures who use live wall to attack it. There was no single act of Jewish terrorist attack against palestinians. However, open up newspapers (even from Anti-semitic editions you can see the facts), Arabs constantly terrorize Israel sinse 1947.
The wall between the US and Mexico is primary used to keep illegal immigration from happening. “better life…” people may be desperate, but there are enough problems in the US. There are already millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, States cannot accept more. The wall is much better than board police shooting criminals.
July 30th, 2007 at 9:53 am
90% of Internet disagreements revolve around the Israeli/Palestinian conflict..and here’s why.
Israel was granted autonony after the Allied forces found the concentration camps and they felt obligated to give the Jews their own “homeland” They decided to create this homeland right in the middle of their arch enemys land..the Arabs.
The Arabs reluctantly agreed to grant Israel independence dispite their cultural and historical differences.
Within a few years of Independence, the Jews decided that the original borders that were created for Israel did not match up with the historical borders and proceeded to invade the neighbouring countries..with the blessing of the United States, of course.
This conflict was known as the SIX DAY war. The Israeli’s butchered thousands os innocent people and created the new state of Israel as defined by their historical records. Remember long lines at the gas pump and tenfold increase in the price of gas? Thank Israel for that.
Although some of the land has been reclaimed (Israeli’s homeownerswere payed millions for the resettlement land by the United States taxpayer) most of it is still controlled by Israel with the unwavering support of the US.
This is the disputed land that is at the core of the conflict in Israel and remains the Achillis heal of the region.
Unfortuanately the Jewish lobby is the most powerful lobby in the US, and it is responsible for providing a very large share of campaign contributions to Senators and Congressmen, Democrat and Republican. What this means is simple: As long as our politicians vote in favor of EVERY bill that contains Israeli-USA interests, AIPAC and the other Jewish Lobbies will continue to donate to their campaigns..if they don’t, the campaign contributions will be withdrawn, practically assuring their defeat.
I hope this will shed some light on why America is addicted to Israel, and why the tail is waggig the dog in American politics. I hope changes can be made soon, or we are all doomed.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Walls don’t kill people, falling off of them does…which means they can only function if people never change. incidentally, I think this art is ironic. It is fifty feet tall and emblazoned with simplicity. It is an advertisement for a way of thought, a glibness of perception, which is not far from “self-righteousness.” For this reason, I see it as nothing more than a fifty foot religious tract–but without the caveat-promise of salvation. This one lacks hope, or a way to hope. It seems almost like a marketing scheme set to an aesthetic/politic. Thoughts?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Jaheb, what are you talking about? First of all, Jews and Arabs weren’t considered “arch-enemies” back then. Secondly, The Six Day War was when all the Arab countries that bordered Israel decided to attack it. Israel defended itself and miraculously even won over some land, including Jerusalem. Israel then gave most of what it won (eg. Sinai Peninsula) back in exchange for peace. Get your facts straight!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Jaheb,
Thanks for your comments. I hope you don’t mind if I discuss your points.
First of all, the allies didn’t give the Jews their homeland because of the concentration camps. It’s a little more complex than that.
Israel declared its own independence after the UN General Assembly approved the
United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine. Israel declared its independence one day before the British mandate of Palestine expired, but after the UN Partition Plan was approved by the General Assembly. A number of allied countries abstained from the vote, though, including Britain. If you look it up, the General Assembly that voted for a separate Jewish State was made up of more than just the Allies; also, a number of countries who were allies, did not vote at all. This is because they wanted to maintain good relations with oil-rich Arab nations. Some allies sided with the Arabs position. Basically the UN General assembly decided on an Israeli homeland but the Arabs did not agree.
The Arab nations did not reluctantly grant the Jews autonomy. Instead, the Arabs revolted against the Jews with violence. The partitioning of the British mandate of Palestine led almost immediately to the death of thousands of Jews and Arabs. Historically, the acts of violence over Israel’s independence in lieu of the UN’s decision were first committed by Arabs. Shortly after those deaths, the military operations by Arab nations began. Of course, this major conflict goes back to as far as the 20s. The inlfux of Jews fleeing persecution in Europe before the concentration camps, led to growing tensions and violence between the two people eventually resulting in the 6 day war.
You got the time line wrong my friend. The six day war began only days after the UN Partition Plan. It started with a cablegram from the secretary general of the league of Arab states informing the UN that the Arab nations decided to create The United State of Palestine instead.
Shortly after the cablegram, many Arab Nations began their campaign against Israel, starting with a blockade of 100, 00 Jewish settlers.
Also, I don’t think the US blessed the war but the US and the Soviets deemed the campaign started by the Arabs as an illegal action.
The Chinese on the other hand were fully supportive of Arab claims.
Many truces during the war were brokered by the UN. So f you think the US pulls the UN’s strings, then you could say the US made an effort to bring about a diplomatic solutions to the 6 day war.
The war itself is very complex but it ended with an armistice agreement signed by Egypt, Lebanon, Transjordan, and Syria delineating the green line or truce line.
As for the butchering and slaughtering: well both sides had their fair share, but Israel got to butcher the most of all with some estimates at 5000-15000 Arab troops and civilians killed to Israel’s puny 6373. 4000 soldiers and the rest civilians.
As for the Jewish Lobby, well I find that discussion to be a little too nebulous for me to tackle. It’s just rife with varying opinions and views, I don’t really know much about it. However, it seems logical to me that Oil Companies and the Arms Industry have an enormous interest in and influence over what happens in the Middle East as well. Perhaps even more the ‘Jewish Lobby’ or maybe less. I’m not sure.
Overall, I think it was the British who first supported an Israeli homeland. The Balfour Declaration of 1947 it was called. It’s kind of ironic that later Jewish Paramilitary groups eventually ousted the British in their push for independance. This was because Britain limited Jewish emigration in hopes to maintain good relations with Arab nations.
At the same time, the Palestinians made an agreement with Germany to allow Germany to oust the British and exterminate the Jews in return for sovereignty. This probably didn’t impress the Allied Nations very much if you know what I mean.
The US Government historically is made up of men and women with varying opinions on the Jewish homeland. Truman supported a Jewish Homeland while secretary of state George Marshall did not for example.
But when Jewish-American and European-Jewish Scientists helped the US build the bomb, though, Jewish-Americans gained great support from the US Government.
However, the US was somewhat neutral about the Arab-Israeli conflict, hoping to maintain good relations with oil-rich Arab nations just like the British.
But US support for Israel grew over the years.
In the 50s and 60s the US loaned money to Israel,true; but in 56 the US forced Israel to end the Suez Crisis.
The US in the 50s and 60s eventually sold weaponry to the Israelis, but they sold weaponry to the Egypt and Jordan at the same time.
Overall though, you are right. Ever since Johnson till the present administration, support for Israel has grown, again I think it may have a lot to do with the interest oil companies and arms dealers have in the region. Israel may just be a strategic alliance needed by these corporations. Of course, Israel and America have a lot in common culturally as well–similar values.
I hear frequently how Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid, but apparently since 76 Iraq is actually the largest recipient. Also, some people don’t realize that the US also gives billions of dollars to Palestine trying to broker a peace deal between Israel and Palestine.
Hope you don’t mind me throwing out a few thoughts on your comments. Take care.
A.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
I’m not enough into politics to contribute to the conversations here but I think that each and every person (with the exception of the comedians…funny as they are) makes a good point. That’s what makes the world go ’round. Opinions and everyone has one! I like the art. It’s one persons opinion and I think it is, for the most part, very risque! It got all of you talking didn’t it.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Alistar, what you say is very informed and well stated. One thing, though, is that you make it seem like the Six day War happened right after Israel was created. Though fighting between Arabs and Jews started then, the Six Day War happened in 1967. It was a monumentous time for Jews everywhere because they could once again go up to and pray at the Western Wall of the Holy Temple.
And even with growing support of Israel, there is still a lot of anti-zionism in the world that is indistinguishable from anti-Semitism.
If anyone does want to become more informed on the subject, I recommend checking out davidproject.org (I’m not affiliated with it, but I think it’s a very good thing).
July 30th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Best article regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict is
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The Balfour Declaration and its consequences.html
July 30th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
China built a wall to keep invading Mongolians out of their country and now it is considered one of the 7 Wonders of the World. How is that any different? Lets face the facts - We are putting up a wall to keep people from coming in at such an alarming rate. They figure if they can cut back 60% of immigration then things will be more balanced. Think about it from a purely logical standpoint. Every person who lives in a city which provides public water and electricity, consumes an average amount of each resource. The public utilities predict the yearly growth based on legal immigration and birth rates. If you open your borders and allow people to flood the borders then this number becomes unpredictable. Eventually growth will cause water shortages and rolling blackouts. Sound familiar California? In order for the public utilities to keep up with demand then that means more tax dollars need to be generated but when you have 12 million people who do not own property and live 10 to an apartment then that means they are using the same as other people but (showers, baths, and toilets) not paying the fair share to increase capacity. Also think about schools. Schools can only grow by so much until they build another school. How do you think schools are funded? Through property taxes. Immigration is one of the greatest things about this country. We should soften the restrictions on legal immigration. Make them pay a tax when coming in, do a criminal background check and put limits on one nationality being allowed to immigrate more than any other. Melting pot… Not cultural overthrow. This country is great because of ALL the races and nationalities… I am a white male but I am grateful that I have black neighbors and I bought some dead sea salt from a Israeli native over the weekend and that I studied the Koran with my Muslim friend. I am grateful that I can speak Spanish and English. I am from Texas and I live in Austin. Down the road is a German settlement for that I am grateful. Fifteen miles from there is a Mexican settlement. My best friend is from the former Czech Republic or at least his family is. I love Japanese women and Chinese too. There are many things that make this country great but most of all it is because of the people.
July 30th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Isn’t it the walls that we put up that make people so cool? How interesting would it be to visit the Europeans if they didn’t have the borders and “walls” to make them distinct from Asians, North Americans, South Americans, etc.? personally, I want more walls. Ironic that the same people who criticize the walls are the same people who demand diversity. Can you have diversity without the walls that create the differences amongst people? Seriously, check out Die Hard 4. It all makes sense.
July 30th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Regarding Anonymous’s statement,
You know what. You are absolutely right. I made a mistake. I got so carried away reading up on all this fascinating stuff that I accidentally mistook the 6 day war for the Arab Israeli War. My apologies. I’m glad you pointed out my mistake.
Oh well I’m no scholar, just trying to learn about the historical facts here. Its really funny how this simplistic modern art instigated this discussion yknow? I think instant communication kind of pushes me into getting my point out ASAP. I’ll try to be more careful next time.
I like modern art. It makes me laugh. The modern era is so absurd.
Sorry if I contradicted anyone with false information.
July 30th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Anonymous,
I thought jehab referring to the Arab Israeli war rather than the 6 day war. That’s why I said his time line was wrong. I mean a few years after 1948 is only the early 50s while the 6 day war started in in 67 so it seemed like he was talking about the Arab Israeli war rather than the 6 day war. Sorry for any misunderstanding or miscommunication.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Art should fulfil 3 conditions
1. that it stirs the emotions
2. that it cannot be repeated to the original effect
3. that it causes people to think
I think that Dan Perjovschi has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams and with merely one cartoon.
Ladies and gentlemen, read the above and see the effect that your contributions have on the appreciation of the art and the artist. They are sufficient in themselves to define the “Berlin Wall” cartoon as one of the great works of art.
PS
Condition 1 does not require that the emotions be either appropriate or even laudable
Condition 2 is a given - in the future any copy will be met with “Huh! I’ve seen that.”
Condition 3 does not require the thought to be rigorous.
July 31st, 2007 at 12:34 am
if you woke up one morning and some one had entered your yard camped out picked your garden ,pluged in to your water and power , whent to school, the hospital, you got sent the bill, you asked that they leave you get sued for dicrimination because your german grand mother lives in your house and those living in your yard are not german what would any of you do 12million is the low number 40 million is the high number of illegal aliens liveing in my yard the united states of americia
July 31st, 2007 at 3:53 am
How ironic.
For years the Israeli government refrained from building the wall because it plays into the hands of the Palestinians. More precisely, it substantiates the borders of their future state.
However, this wall has proven itself to be the best known solution (so far) against suicide bombers.
There’s no joking about it. Suicide bombers are coming from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, where it’s easy and safe for them to build the bombs, and have their infamous “72 virgins waiting for me in Heaven” videotape filmed.
People die. I assure you you would talk differently had you lived here.
Indeed, the wall also brings with it a negative impact on the Palestinian people. Why Oh Why, then, would their government do nothing, nothing, against the suicide bombers?
Oh, I forgot, the Palestinian government is no other than the Hammas movement, one of the major terrorist organizations, which does not acknowledge the existence of the Israeli state, and which publicly supports all terrorist attacks.
Enough for now. We all wish to live in peace and quiet. The wall helps us to somehow get closer to that target.
Regards
July 31st, 2007 at 7:22 am
Something there is that doesn’t love a wall.
July 31st, 2007 at 10:15 am
Here’s what I was thinking:
The Berlin Wall was like in those episodes of shows when people that live together in the same house/apartment/room get into a fight and divide the rooms in the place using chalk or string to separate themselves and that the other person can’t cross over. They eventually make up and tear the barrier down.
The American/Mexico Wall is like if two people live in the same house, but America doesn’t like Mexico going into his bedroom, his personal room, without permission.
The Israeli Wall is like if they live in two separate houses and Israel doesn’t want them breaking into his home and killing him.
July 31st, 2007 at 10:41 am
Shlomi, I understand your point. But I want to note one sentence of yours:
“For years the Israeli government refrained from building the wall because it plays into the hands of the Palestinians. More precisely, it substantiates the borders of their future state.”
So, you do not want Palestinians to have their land? You said that Hamas is bad because they does not recognize Israel as state and they support terrorism. But your government did not build a wall before just to avoid marking the Palestinian territory? (and failing to protect YOU from terrorism by the way). Your government encourages hate and avoid acknowledge of the Palestine state, do you see similarities here? This is just an example, I took it from your own words.
Israel state terrorism is another twist of the same thing Hamas do. Muslims and Jewish act very similar unfortunately, and that is what I cannot understand. You (jewish and muslims) should not be so egoists against your neighbors for sooo many time (+5000 years). But Jewish usually are smarter, I think you should be the first to stop with that. After 5000 year war I am sure it wont be easy, but otherwise you would have another amount of years with the same continue violent war, do you like that? I hope you see the light somehow…
July 31st, 2007 at 3:01 pm
What needs to be said, which many people fail to mention is that any wall that is built, to keep someone out, or keep someone in, is always doing so against someone’s rights and someone’s will. And doing that will only cause more animosity, segregation and the feeling of hurt, which is the problem in the first place…
It also has to be said that Jews and Muslims has through history mostly lived peacefully and in harmony with each other until the state of Israel was created, and millions of Palestinians got forced out of their homes. The supreme army of the Israeli army and with the support from the west “that gave the land to the Jews” .
Palestine was previously occupied and “claimed” by the British Empire - and Jewish terrorists was actually doing attacks, on the British. so ironically you could say it is a state grounded on terrorism.
And the granting of Palestine to the Jews? “The West” felt “bad” for the killing of Jews during the 2nd world war. Even though all western counties, was very, and I mean very reluctant to accept Jews from the Nazi controlled countries. before and during the war.
Large efforts was made by the Jewish communities around the world and they were all trying to get their governments to act and allow Jews to enter and to speak to the Germans. This connected Jews from around the world and the Jewish and the World Jewish Congress grew strong.
A wealthy Estonian Jew, Gilel Storch, who managed to get to Sweden at the time was making huge efforts to free Jews, and also supply food to them by delivering food to concentration camps, and credit has to be given to Switzerland and Sweden for ,even if late, accommodating and saving Jews. You see towards the end, when the killings intensified Heimlich Himmler (much thanks to Felix Kersten a Finnish masseur) and other high ranking Nazis did actually allow the freeing of Jews… sometime in exchange for goods and provision or other items and at times to try to clean their names somewhat since they could see that they were likely to loose the war. There are examples:
the White buses, a Swedish expedition where pressure was put on Sweden to save French and Dutch women, before making efforts to pick up jews) and there is also an example of the Swedish Raoul Wallenberg who went to Romania I think it was, and gave Swedish “provisional passports” to Romanian Jews.
so now the Issue with the walls built by Israel at the moment… and why there is violence… 2 state solution… go back to the original 2 state solution, as drawn out and accepted by the UN (when it stilled counted) and then there might actually be a stop to the violence…. either that, or my favourite solution: A one state solution, with two names (Palestine, Israel) same country just different names… just like Holland and Netherlands, two names one country… Jews and Muslims have lived in harmony before, and they can again, but they have to think together not separately, and not talking about the land as it is their own…. but it is theirs, to share…
on that note, there is no God or Allah, there is no creator of man… we are just a part of a rather astonishing and mind boggling Universe…. and for that there is plenty of science to back me up…. but read “the God Delusion” by Steven Dawkins and maybe you will be enlightened…
Peace, Love & Misunderstandings
July 31st, 2007 at 3:28 pm
We rarely do geopolitics here. Too depressing.
But we’re happy to have such great readers who have risen to the challenge of discussing this ‘wall’ topic with intelligence and maturity.
If we had to choose one excerpt, it’d be this one: ‘Jews and Muslims have lived in harmony before, and they can again.’
Thank you all for your comments, and the wisdom you put into this thread.
JC
July 31st, 2007 at 6:13 pm
You’ve got to be kidding. I expect SOME talent from someone who would be shown at MOMA. What are the standards there? Anyone with an agenda?
August 1st, 2007 at 4:59 am
All is Great.
All is Good.
We are all ONE.
We are all SIMPLE.
Life is so short.
Art is so loong.
Peace, love and pass the toilet paper.
Please. (The magic word!)
Thank You.
August 1st, 2007 at 1:44 pm
I just read this message from the UN Security Council’s website:
“Thanks to the discussions arising on a blog located at www.pantherhouse.com, and which were fomented by a cute, yet insightful and provocative cartoon, we can proudly state that we have developed a solution to the crisis in the middle east. We emphatically thank all those contributed to the blog for their ideas, which have indeed brought peace to the middle east. We will be implementing their brilliant ideas immediately and can look forward to the resulting peace shortly. The UN has also nominated the bloggers at www.pantherhouse.com for the upcoming Nobel Peace Prize for your contributions in bringing peace to the Middle East. See ya.”
Congratulations, guys! You figured it all out.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Breaking ****** We just learn that Ban Ki-moon was fired. The new Secretary-General of the United Nations is Aardvark.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:53 pm
And aardvark is a ruthless leader. he gives the israelis and palestinians 4 weeks to resolve their issues. if the problems have not been resolved within the specified time, he orders a UN peacekeeping force into Israel/Palestine, removes all weapons, and locks all inhabitants in the West Bank. Walls are built, enclosing all persons, and he orders a royal rumble between the unarmed palestinians and israelis. He closes his eyes to the battle and moves on, recognizing that the outcome represents a gruesome, yet effective, solution to a portion of the World’s population problem. As UN Secretary-General, Aardvark recognizes that for better or worse, fair or unfair, the world was not made for the weak and that today’s israeli/palenstinian who can’t work out their differences represents yesterday’s dinosaur, i.e., a sub-species incapable of living in the world. Harsh, maybe. Realistic, yes.
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:15 pm
How many posters here have their computer behind a firewall?
Actually, I’m more interested in the people bitching about walls. Maybe you guys should un-do your firewalls and welcome people into your computers.
Firewalls divide people!
August 3rd, 2007 at 10:54 am
i have a nice bike in my house. i put about four walls and a lock around it b/c w/o the wall, people would take it. without walls, people will take your crap from you.
August 4th, 2007 at 10:31 am
Legality is not a proper barometer for morality.
August 5th, 2007 at 10:52 am
a wall is a wall, brothers who are able to kill each other without mercy deserve to behind walls or fences for that matter.
August 5th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Walls are a solution, but they are not the best solution. (But generally the quickiest and ‘easiest’).
I respectfully ask that America quit going into other countries, destroying their economy, forcing farmers to grow cash crops, which end up in competition with each other, causing the price to plummet, causing widespread poverty and suffering.
I also ask that America gives up its meat-centric diet, as growing the feed and grazing those huge herds of animals are using up grain crops, causing deserts to spread.
I also ask that you make it illegal to travel by air, or by car, as the carbon emissions are causing the temperature to rise, making the desert and water problems worse, particularly in countries with a very low carbon footprint. Your luxury lifestyle is causing these people to die.
I also ask that you place the number of civilians killed in Iraq against the number of people killed in 9/11. Those people were children, mothers, fathers and friends too.
August 5th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Oh - Allen, fred, hork and friends, Thanx 4 proovin T.V can shape perception and distort reality. The wall was built for israeli protection, The rise of HAMAS was forseen and since too many suicide bombers came out of the palestinian areas, Israel chose to deny entrance. Not Ideal, but absolutly not to ” steal land from the indigenous arabs” like Allen suggested. Turn off Fox news, man..
August 5th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Suzie…..
I respectfully ask that you shut the fuck up ’til you know more about global warming and feeding/eating cows and the starving that will come if that’s not done.
I also ask that you don’t single out America, when there are other countries that drive cars and fly planes
The children, mothers, fathers and friends killed in Iraq were put in danger by their own people. America didn’t choose to kill these people. In fact, they try their hardest not to.
Everyone wants to bash America, and at the same time live here and pretend to be one of us.
August 6th, 2007 at 3:20 am
If you want to build a wall that will actually work build it in a large circle and put all pundits, mercenaries, profiteers, politicians, theologians, and assholes (particularly assholes) on both sides of the conflicts inside and the rest of us on the outside to live together in peace and prosperity. Amen.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Walls…just say no.
August 11th, 2007 at 9:43 am
I can bash America and I don’t live there or want to live there… Although I did live there for one year, now I live in the UK… sadly that also slowly turning in to a police state…
long live Democracy, and not a two or three party democracy, but 7 or 8… the world should look at Sweden when it comes to state governance… and the even share of power…
August 13th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
If you dont like how America does things…leave.
If you’re not here and you dont like it…mind your business.
If you dont like the way America does things and they’re taking over your country or in any other way effecting you…sucks to be you! Stop being a pussy and do something about it. and I dont mean in a forum.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:18 am
A lot of people seem to be confused about issues here.
First of all, illegal immigration is actually good for America. Most illegals take jobs that honest, hard-working American citizens would not be willing to take, such as lawnmowing, fruit-picking, etc.
Also, Some illegals do not get a fake Social Security number and just get a job where the employer doesn’t care. These employers are often caught and fined.
Other illegals, however, get fake Socials and legitimate jobs. These people pay taxes but never get any of the benefits of Social Security, Medicaid, etc. If our social aid programs survive the baby boom, it’ll be because of the contributions of the illegals.
It is the legal immigrants that hurt America. They take the same jobs that natives take, but they are willing to work for less money.
High corporate taxes are also a problem. Do you know why large firms outsource workers? It’s not because the quality is better in other places; it’s because it’s cheaper to have a factory in Southeast Asia than in America. Some people say corporations should be morally obliged to make jobs for Americans. That is ridiculous. Corporations should be morally obliged to make as much money as they possibly can, and pass their earnings on to their stockholders.
The solution, then, is to provide incentives for companies to base their operations in America. Corporate tax breaks could do this.
Many people think that sweatshops are bad. This is also untrue. The average sweatshop worker in a third world country may only make a couple of USDs a day, but they are generally paid double what their neighbor who works in a local business is paid. No one is forcing these people to work in sweatshops. There are always jobs, and they can always look somewhere else. They work there because the money is good.
That sweatshops are good for a nation’s economy (and thus its people) is indisputable. Look at any of the Asian tigers for evidence. Every single one of them followed the same pattern.
The Israel/Palestine issue is also cut and dry. The Jews owned the land before the Palestinians did (this is based not only on Biblical records, but also Babylonian and Roman). Israel was legitimized by both the British (who owned the land) and the UN. Israel has been under near constant attack since its independence from the surrounding countries. Israel has tried negotiation and reasoning, but it has not worked. Israel has tried giving back land that it rightfully conquered in a defensive war, but it has not worked.
Everyone has a right to defend themselves. States are no exception. There is a war going on in the Middle East right now. Israel is participating in that war. Israel has every right to defend itself the way it sees fit. Luckily for innocent civilians, Israel’s defense strategy does not involve preemptive attacks on Palestinian cities. Instead, they use a statistically proven method of self-defense that doesn’t aggressively kill anyone.
Also, people who think that America is taking over the world through economics or militarism should think again. It is through culture that we dominate. Turn on the news and you can see people (in places other than America) in jeans and baseball caps protesting America. The night the Berlin wall fell, the West Berlin head Coca-Cola distributor went to the East and handed out free Coca-Cola. He gave away everything he had, for free. He is now an executive in the company (I believe - he might be dead).
August 14th, 2007 at 4:59 am
Patrick is a dickhead like the rest of his fellow dickheads you fucking sheep,go fight a fake war in Iraq cause your President told you ,you should wanker..fuck off
August 14th, 2007 at 10:01 am
Ummm.. I said NOT in a forum!
I think we’re fighting a war in Iraq because someone attacked our country…
whether that’s the actuall reason or an excuse, it’s still a fact that we were attacked….I’d rather be a dickhead than a pussy. I think that may have sounded gay, but you know what i mean.
Wanker ?? Please dont tell me you’re british, because if you are your own Prime Minister was fighting a war because Bush told him too. Talk about pusssies.
We should ban whiteboards and dry-erase markers…. they’re nothing but trouble.
August 15th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Ah, America!
It´s gonna be nice to watch you drown in your own arrogance and blind stupidity.
August 16th, 2007 at 7:57 am
America is just a country lika any other country,
and just like the other countrys which enjoyed their days in the sun america is enjoying its days,
power always shifts,
every country has had a taste of it at some point in their history, let it be Egypt, India, china, Iran (remember 300), the turks, Greece, Roman empire, Germany, spain, portugal. but the fact of the matter is power never stays.
the reason for all this US millitary action is confidence.
for america to remain a power there is an indefinite need for the world to have confidence in the power of the dollar.
since the dollar is not pegged to any physical asset but floats in the international currency markets.
what i mean to say is america lives on a fortress made on a deck of cards, the deficit america maintains with the world econommies cannot be sustained forever, and incase the dollar falls the deficit increases. so whenever the dollar weakens we all can expect a war or an invasion on any evil country (which will be decided by Mr. Bush or Mr cheney).
because nothing energises the markets like a war on terror. weapons and intelliegence software is the biggest export of america though you wont find it in the papers (you need to follow the Dow or the Nyse for this). and what better way to pay for your millitary than by the UN and the friendly countrys like kuwait who will ever so gladly pay for protection.
take the case of halliburton no other construction company benefits from wars as much as it does.
in short the rabbit hole is very deep and very deeply and confusingly connected.
by the way jews and palestinians have been fighting since the days of David the apostle. and i guess the fight is eternal.
no one likes to move on you see!
The poor israelies should blame there governments for allowing them to settle in the occupied territories and then coming after decades to tell them to leave since they have signed a so called treaty. and the palestinians if anything should just try to live with what they have. no other super solutions.
by the way once upon a time the american dollar was pegged to gold like other currencies of its time and all this gold was supposed to be stored in fort knox but after the dollar became afloat. this gold has been lying in fort knox without any audit being done for nearly three to four decades. some believe that the gold has been smuggled into foreign markets and has been sold. (Its a conspiracy theory so to speak)
August 16th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Wow you guys really need to get a life. Especially people who wrote more than three paragraphs. Its a wall. Deal with it.
August 17th, 2007 at 12:12 am
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king’s horses and all the king’s men
Couldn’t put Humpty together again.
a wall is a wall, a wall is dangerous wall,
so build the wall and sit on the wall,
you will fell from the wall with a great fall,
all of them UNs F@Ck ups
couldn’t help you anymore.
by the way, how many times was the word “wall” mentioned on this page ? LOL
August 17th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
I, unlike many others, understand that there is no real point posting this low in a comments section because the only eyes venturing this far south belong to those whose intentions are to post on this page themselves. It’s extremely unlikely that anyone (outside of the micro-flame-wars) has even read the bottom half of this comments section. And so to this comment, I bid adieu - to be forever lost in the seemingly infinite depths of server storage space, n’er to be validated with consuming interest. Farewell 5 minutes of wasted life. Farewell.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Keep it to what is important. The art work sucks.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:29 am
with way to the porn
August 19th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
I wish it were possible to excise the middle east and move it to some other planet where they could continue their senseless feud. I tire of the USA being the world police force.
Immigrants? The USA is made of ‘em! HOWEVER, I despise any immigrant who comes here and disrespects our country and our traditions. I am angered by the fact that every time I go to an ATM I have to choose if I want the language in English, Spanish or Cantonese or every time I walk into a WalMart I am confronted by signs and video messages in English and Spanish and when I go to the cashier I am greeted (not greeted) by a lackadaisical Mexican woman who is more concerned about how her fingernails look than the customer in front of her! I am angered by the immigrants that have no desire to learn our language.
I am angered by the illegal Brazilians at my work who I hear take there paycheck to buy drugs to sell to make more money and then take it back to Brazil.
I am angered from the fact that each time I go into a Dunkin Donuts in my area the counter help continually converses in Portuguese or Spanish while they wait on customers. It is RUDE!!
In the early 1900’s when we got the major wave of immigration, the immigrants RESPECTED the fact that they were being given the opportunity to BECOME AMERICANS! They made damned sure that their children LEARNED ENGLISH and the American way of life!
Immigrants are welcome in this country but they must respect it!
It’s time to take back our country that our ancestors stole from the American Indians!
August 20th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
yea i know. its it isnt it
August 21st, 2007 at 8:07 pm
ahh,
Bigots and ignorant…
How many truths there are!!!
And most of the “facts” laid out, are based on opinions and point of view… I hope even the most conservative Jew, Muslim, American and other morons understand that.
- Jeans was invented by a German Levi Strauss (in the states)
- to work in a sweatshop is not a privilege… since when is it a privilege to work more then 10 hours gluing together shoes and inhaling dangerous fumes when you are just 11….? Think about that next time you where your Nike.
- Power shifts, that is what is happening at the moment (next 5-20 years), and America (not the dumb red necks an uneducated ignorants) knows it, and are trying to reassert their power in the world, unfortunately it looks like this power shift will be a violent one…
- USA has a dark history when it comes to meddling with the rest of the world - this is something that can’t be denied…
and with regards to Israel, read my first post… but one thing is for sure, UN didn’t give it to the Jews, they agreed to let them share the land with the people already living there… something that we know they haven’t been very willing to do… and they are buildling the wall on occupied land, so that they can then try to negotiate a deal where that land will then be accepted by the rest of the world… and saying that Israel has been under attack since they where founded is a false statement…
there are facts files showing how many “Isrelis” have been killed by “attacks” and how many Palestinians have been killed by (I guess they call it )”defence” and the Palestinian death toll is very and I mean VERY much higher.
one more… USA wasn’t attacked, they had a terrorist action on it’s soil and it had nothing to do with Iraq and to even suggest it did is plain ignorance. and US has never had to fight for their “way of life” as they call it, cause it hasn’t been under threat by anyone… except themselves… have a little look at the recent law changes that you have passed since Bush got to power, and realize that you are living in something that can very soon be likened to a Police state… unfortunately if the Brits don’t wake up, they will be next…. since they are getting close to a police state as well…
Long live freedom and Democracy!!!
August 22nd, 2007 at 7:55 am
Don’t forget, is still the wall in Cyprus :(
Anyway, good post :)
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:53 am
Mattias,
Thank You, You have restored my faith in the Human race which hitherto was seriously injured. I come from Africa, and I am continually amazed at the ignorance and bigotry that comes from what are supposed to be the ‘advanced continents’ of the world as we know it today!
Even the people with good intentions from these countries, who are trying to help, often attempt to do so from an uninformed point of view. It is therefore not surprising that their efforts do not bare much.
In the end, we are all one people - humanity with one home (the only home we have and know until they discover another habitable planet). What hurts or threatens me will in the end impact on my neighbor/brother.
August 22nd, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Amazing
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Over use of………. p-u-n-stuation is a sign!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Of MADness??? For all of those who like the double exclamation mark.
I particularly liked the tradegy and statistics illustration, so true, so unavoidable
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Walls ARE Walls, and they have two sides, one to keep people in, and one to keep people out. The real question is who controls the door to determine which people can come in or go out.
As far as the whole US-Iraq thing, well, waging war on a country that houses terrorists is like destroying a city because it has too many criminals. Yes, you get the ‘bad guys’, but you also get all the bystanders, too. I guess it all depends on how you justify the means